Gideon Levy: ‘Israel is more united than it appears’

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Gideon Levy, one of Israel's most well-known journalists and a longtime columnist for Haaretz who has dedicated his career to covering the Palestinian question from within Israel, received the Kapuściński Award in Rome on Saturday at the Festival of Travel Literature. We interviewed him, with a focus on his latest book published in Italy, Killing Gaza.

In an op-ed on October 8, 2023, despite the shock and pain, you pointed to Israel's responsibility in the oppression of another people, and you seemed almost surprised by the astonishment of Israeli society at what had happened. When did Israelis stop seeing the Palestinians?

I would say it started with the beginnings of Zionism, which never wanted to build anything together. Israelis have never seen Palestinians as equal human beings, but as ones to be replaced, to be driven out. In the early 1920s, the pioneers spoke openly of the “conquest of labor,” which meant taking work away from Palestinians and seizing it for themselves. The dehumanization of Palestinians has been going on for decades; October 7 only pushed everything to a higher level of intensity, and Israel showed its true colors. Most Israelis believe that Israel has the right to do whatever it wants and that there are no innocent Palestinians. They feel they have not only the right, but the duty to carry out genocide and ethnic cleansing.

In February 2024, I attended the far-right "Victory March" in Jerusalem. At the protest, a man told me something that I found enlightening, a notion I also read about in your book: “Our ideas have become mainstream.” Is that true?

Unfortunately, that is a widely shared view. There is an opposition inside Israel, but it is focused on the hostages and on replacing Netanyahu, not on the genocide. Most of those protesting for the hostages think Israel can do whatever it wants in Gaza. Israel is much more united than it appears on the surface. When you get to the key issues, you really see how much support the far right has today and that October 7 is perceived as an opportunity to be exploited. This doesn't mean all Israelis are crazed fascists, but it does mean the majority harbors a sick indifference to what is happening in Gaza.

In an article on the crumbling of the so-called pacifist front, you write that the left disintegrates at every crisis. Could you explain?

This is another dynamic that began before October 7. The Zionist left has no plan and no leadership, and wants to have its cake and eat it: it wants to continue the occupation but make it liberal and humane; it wants a Jewish state but also a democratic one; it wants a Zionist state but also equality. It has no clear objectives. For example, all the left-wing parties are against the French initiative to recognize the state of Palestine. So, what do they want? This is why they are disappearing. There is no pacifist camp except for a few radical groups, which are unfortunately marginal.

Even before October 7, there was talk of significant emigration from Israel, especially by people we would call liberals. Do you see a danger in their departure? What kind of society do you expect to live in in the coming years?

There is a very clear trend: Israel is moving increasingly toward fundamentalist, nationalist and racist positions. It is a problem if tens of thousands of left-wingers or young people leave, but what worries me more is the majority that is heading into the darkness. It doesn’t matter how many are leaving Israel; the country is losing any kind of liberal spirit. In 10 or 20 years, it will be a very unpleasant place to live.

In your articles from before 2023, you wrote about your days in Gaza, the friendships, the atmosphere you found there. The occupation never ended, but would you say it has become radically worse since the Wall in the West Bank and the siege of Gaza?

It has definitely worsened; it is now catastrophic. I have friends in Gaza who are nostalgic for the days when they had jobs in Israel; they say those were the best of times. They cleaned the streets, worked on construction sites, did difficult jobs in terrible conditions, but they could move freely, they had a salary and they could support their families. It was paradise compared to today. The occupation is constantly changing, and today we are seeing its most barbaric phase: now it is genocide. And in the West Bank, it becomes more terrible every day; settler pogroms are a daily phenomenon. People live in terror. Every occupation gets worse with time, which is why those who would want a “liberal” occupation are deceiving themselves. It’s a vicious circle: every occupation generates resistance; resistance makes the occupation more cruel; and the resistance becomes more cruel in turn.

Among the official goals of the Israeli leadership are freeing the hostages and destroying Hamas, but many observers – most recently, the UN Commission of Inquiry – consider these to be pretexts. Is ethnic cleansing the real goal?

You don’t have to be a critic of the Israeli government; you just have to listen to its own words. The plan is very clear: push the population of Gaza into concentration camps in the south and then “offer” them the choice to either stay in a cage or leave Gaza. This is ethnic cleansing. Likewise, the mass killings, the systematic destruction and the erasure of entire neighborhoods serve to make that land uninhabitable. The government is proving by its actions and its statements that it is committing a planned genocide.

In your book, you write that without international pressure and external intervention, Israel will never end the occupation and apartheid. How do you judge the most recent interventions, from the recognition of the state of Palestine to the EU’s attempts to impose partial sanctions, so far unsuccessful? Why is the West unable to mount a forceful intervention?

It’s a combination of reasons that have their origins in the past and are still there in the relationship between Europe and Israel. On one hand, there is still a sense of guilt among Europeans, and Israel is manipulating that feeling. On the other hand, there is the fear of Donald Trump. Europe is completely passive and knows that if it pushes Israel too far, it will suffer consequences. It is pathetic, shameful behavior. Now some are talking about recognizing Palestine, but they are not promoting a state; they are not stopping the war in Gaza. People are being massacred while they just recognize a state. Europe is making no contribution whatsoever to ending the genocide.

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Originally published at https://ilmanifesto.it/gideon-levy-israele-e-piu-unito-di-quanto-appaia-si-vede-nel-consenso-allultradestra on 2025-09-28